Simply ‘Ellen’s’ title stays a mystery, here appears to be zero-you to titled Ellen otherwise Helen, but maybe an enthusiastic ‘Eleanor’ on Joanna’s top (Eleanor out-of Aquitaine, mother away from Joanna’s father King John)
Hi, someone. It’s truly interesting; what i wouldn’t has actually given to get access to this information twenty-five years ago whenever i is actually comparing and you may composing Here Be Dragons!
An important purpose of that it exercise is to use, because of the a review of genealogist’s viewpoints on the subject and also by consulting some known original supply, to choose who was simply mom out-of Gwladus Ddu ferch Llywelyn. Is actually she Joanna, partner out-of Llywelyn abdominal Iorwerth (Joan Plantagenet: Created circa.1188, died. February 1237) or was she Tangwystl ferch Llyarch of Rhos, mistress away from Llywelyn, produced circa. 1168, passed away??
I am going to stick to this which have a holiday data for the possible life of an effective ded Susanna, offered out over King Henry 111 as the a great hostage in 1228 together with her child custody are Vietnam-naiset supplied so you can Sir Nicholas Verdun with his spouse Clementia.
The fresh viewpoints of your Genealogists that i features studied are only one, views, plus they differ considerably. No unique proof is present in any event, but i have to say that almost all keep to have Gwladus to-be the fresh new daughter regarding Joanna. This is especially true of your genealogists of your descendants of the newest De Braose family relations, even so they ily to be linked with the Welsh and you may English regal homes!
The following list out of Llywelyn’s multiple legitimate and you may illegitimate pupils looks to be basically recognized from the most of the genealogists that we possess learnt except for variations more than whether or not # 9 most lived. This new dates out-of birth given below are also debated from the some:
- Gruffudd ap Llywelyn, produced circa.1199, died 1244
- Gwladys Ddu ferch Llywelyn, born circa.1206, passed away 1251
- Ellen (Helen, Elen) ferch Llywelyn, born circa 1206? passed away circa 1253,
- Margred (Margaret) ferch Llywelyn, created circa 1208? passed away circa 1263,
- Dafydd ap Llywelyn, Prince out-of Wales, produced circa 1208 (1211?) (second thoughts about it time, find afterwards), passed away twenty five March 1246,
- Gwenllian ferch Llywelyn, produced circa 1209 died 1281.
- Angharad ferch Llywelyn, created circa 1210, passed away 1257
- Tegwared ap Llywelyn – born circa 1210, you are able to twin to Angharad?
- ‘Helen’, or ‘Susanna’, created circa 1214? Passed away 1259?
There can be much conflict over the label of your own moms and dads out-of this type of youngsters. There is certainly standard contract the only certain students out-of Llywelyn’s e Prince away from Wales and you will Ellen (Helen) whom hitched (1) John the Scot, young man of your own earl from Chester and you can (2) Robert de Quincy. Regardless if advice was separated across the parents out of Gwladus, Gwenllian, Margred and Susanna, almost all of the genealogists I’ve analyzed lean on its mommy becoming Joanna.
It is partly making use of their going times out of beginning as the well as their marriage ceremonies to several marcher lords just who, one to supposes, will have looked for to line up their houses to that of their neighbor, the fresh new Prince out of North Wales along with his wife, the latest king out of England’s child. It’s believed these types of lords of the March won’t have acquired a whole lot desire or governmental motivation within the marrying out-of its sons on the illegitimate daughters regarding a Welsh prince having a beneficial Welsh lady.
As to what labels of those children, whether or not by the Joanna, Tangwystl or someone else, these were every called after people in Llywelyn’s members of the family:
Ken, we’re entirely on the obligations
Llywelyn’s mother try entitled ‘ed ‘Susanna’ out of Gwynedd. Their paternal granny are called ‘Gwladus’. The parents regarding their granny Susanna, had been ‘Gruffudd’ ap Cynan and you may ‘Angharad’ from Flint and each other the brands got so you’re able to Llywelyn’s children. It Susanna and additionally got a sibling called ‘Gwenllian’, an equivalent identity as Llywelyn’s great-grandmother.
